Closed PU Viability Rankings

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Blaguard

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Greetings, PerfectPokemon battling community! As the tiering council's leader for the PU tier I've been working hard on ranking all the Pokemon in this marvelous meta, and I've come up with a prototype list.

Now I'm looking for feedback from anyone with a good competitive mind and experience in PU battles to help fine-tune my listings. I put a lot of thought into these, but I'm just one person, so naturally it all comes from a limited perspective.

Here's my List

There's a paragraph at the top that lists my criteria for rankings; if you leave a suggestion please post it on this thread with a good reason why you think something should be moved up or down.

Thanks for your support!
 

Ary

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Stictly comparing to the mons placed in the s tier I feel as thou chatot should move up, it can not only destroy 3/4 of the s rank mons as seen in the calcs below but the chatter confusion can ruin hopes of making a comeback and to be fair chatot has repeatedly tore apart my NU teams it also has a variety of move sets such as sub which if used correctly and thanks to chatter hax it can also stop any progress in the battle as well as nasty plot allowing it to ohko many mons.

252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasel: 229-270 (91.2 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO with scarf it outspeeds
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chatot: 257-304 (87.7 - 103.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO if orbed if not then shits dead


252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scyther: 217-256 (77.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO scarfed outspeeds
252 SpA Chatot Chatter vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scyther: 204-240 (72.5 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO scarfed outspeeds

252 SpA Chatot Chatter vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 194-230 (51.8 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Chatot Chatter vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gurdurr: 290-344 (77.5 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

chatot check

252 SpA Life Orb Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chatot: 344-407 (117.4 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

Blaguard

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Stictly comparing to the mons placed in the s tier I feel as thou chatot should move up, it can not only destroy 3/4 of the s rank mons as seen in the calcs below but the chatter confusion can ruin hopes of making a comeback and to be fair chatot has repeatedly tore apart my NU teams it also has a variety of move sets such as sub which if used correctly and thanks to chatter hax it can also stop any progress in the battle as well as nasty plot allowing it to ohko many mons.

252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasel: 229-270 (91.2 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO with scarf it outspeeds
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chatot: 257-304 (87.7 - 103.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO if orbed if not then shits dead


252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scyther: 217-256 (77.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO scarfed outspeeds
252 SpA Chatot Chatter vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scyther: 204-240 (72.5 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO scarfed outspeeds

252 SpA Chatot Chatter vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 194-230 (51.8 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Chatot Chatter vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gurdurr: 290-344 (77.5 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

chatot check

252 SpA Life Orb Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chatot: 344-407 (117.4 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This makes me consider it for S, but personally it seems that just because it checks S rank mons doesn't make it (necessarily) S-worthy. On top of the fact that it checks, not counters these mons, is weak to rocks, and has just ok stats (though the amazing STAB in Boomburst and a Choice Scarf mitigate its SpA and Spd respectively, they're both rather limiting). On top of the fact that things like Batiodon and Gigalith are still reliable switch-ins (even Specs HP Ground can't OHKO, and if specially defensive, Gigalith isn't even 2HKO).
 

Martin

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I've played a fair bit of PU, so I can make comments (although they will be vaigue as there are LOTS of them to make)

Firstly though, I suggest splitting this into sub tiers for everything barring S and F ranks. This is simply because there is division between tiers that this simply doesn't display. Anyway, onto my comments:
comments under 'mons said:
S-Rank--As the top threats of PU, these guys perform exceptionally well in the majority of circumstances, and most of them have multiple roles they can play. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

  • Gurdurr

  • Haunter

  • Scyther

  • Sneasel

A-Rank--Very high performers in PU, these pokes will perform well in their respective roles with some support, with many of them having more than one potential set.

  • Bastiodon
    This really isn't an A rank 'mon. Its typing leaves it with crippling weaknesses to Fighting- and Ground-type attacks which completely cripple it in its role as a physical wall.
  • Chatot
    Chatot is ok, but it really isn't an A rank threat. It is just way too frail and reliant on luck to get set up, while Specs suffers from Boomburst resistances/immunities resisting heavily. Move it to B.
  • Frogadier

  • Huntail

  • Kadabra

  • Misdreavus

  • Musharna

  • Raichu

  • Tangela

  • Tauros
    This thing is broken get it into S rn
  • Zebstrika

B-Rank--Good performers in the tier, with the right set and support they will pull their weight in most battles.

  • Avalugg

  • Barbaracle

  • Carbink

  • Dusclops
    Dusclops isn't good. It is D rank at best.
  • Floatzel

  • Gigalith

  • Gourgeist-Large

  • Kecleon
    This thing is insanely good (albeit not as good as Tauros, but on level with Sneasel). Get it to S rank rn.
  • Lapras

  • Leavanny

  • Linoone

  • Lumineon
    Lumineon isn't this good - even with Defog+U-turn+Storm Drain. Its stats don't hold up. Move it to D.
  • Luxray
    Luxray is ok, but not B rank. Move it to C.
  • Marowak
    Marowak is too slow for it to be very effective most of the time. Move it down to C or D.
  • Mr. Mime
    Mr. Mime i one of the best things in the tier. Move it into A.
  • Octillery
    Octillery is ass. Move it to F.
  • Pinsir

  • Regice

  • Rotom-F

  • Simipour
    Simipour is rather good. Move it to A.
  • Simisear

  • Slaking
    Slaking isn't good lol get it down to D.
  • Ursaring
    This thing is one of the best 'mons in the tier. It should be somewhere in A rank.
  • Wigglytuff

C-Rank--Mediocre-level pokes, with mediocre potential. Given solid team support they can be shown to pull through in their niche, but often are outclassed.

Where's Gourgeist-S? This thing needs to be ranked - move it to C.
Where's Electabuzz? This thing needs to be ranked - move it to C.
  • Altaria
    Specstaria is scary. Move this to B.
  • Arbok
    Arbok should be B. Its niches hold out better than a lot of the C rank 'mons.
  • Ariados
    Ariados is the worst webber, and Toxic Spikes aren't big enough of a niche to put it this high.
  • Aurorus
    ... this thing is one of the best wallbreakers in the tier due to Refridgerate. Sure Gurdurr holds it back, but that thing was supposed to go to NU after its pre-release test in NFE anyway. Move this to A.
  • Beheeyem

  • Bibarel
    Bibarel isn't C rank material .-. move it to D.
  • Butterfree

  • Dedenne
    Dedenne is useless and 100% outclassed by every Electric-type in the game. Move it down to F.
  • Dodrio

  • Drifblim

  • Dusknoir
    WHY THE F*CK IS THIS BELOW DUSCLOPS!!!! Dusknoir is in the right tier, but Dusclops needs to be in D. At least Dusknoir has the potential to actually do something if its used.
  • Emolga
    Move it to D/F. Emolga is entirely outclassed by Zebstrika, with its only niche being a Ground immunity.
  • Furfrou

  • Glaceon

  • Hypno

  • Jumpluff
    Jumpluff is one of the scariest mons in the tier rn due to its standard set (SD+Sleep Powder+Acrobatics+Seed Bomb). Move it to A.
  • Klang

  • Maractus
    Maractus isn't a C rank thing. Get it to D.
  • Masquerain

  • Meganium
    Meganium isn't C rank. It is way too passive without having the bulk or typing to maintain its passivity. Get it to D/F...
  • Meowstic-F
    Meowstic-F is worthless get it to F rn.
  • Mightyena

  • Pelipper

  • Persian
    IMO this should be B, but i will test it some more.
  • Rampardos

  • Raticate

  • Sawsbuck
    Get this into B rn. Second best physical Chlorophyll 'mon behind Jumpluff, Sap Sipper gives it a v. useful niche.
  • Seviper

  • Simisage
    Simisage is about as good as Simisear. Move it to B.
  • Solrock

  • Stoutland
    Get this into B rn. Scrappy and Sand Rush are both scary to face.
  • Stunfisk

  • Swalot
    Swalot is ass. Put it in F.
  • Swoobat
    Swoobat should be B due to its high speed tier and the power of a simple Calm Mind.
  • Tropius

  • Vespiquen

  • Volbeat
    Great weather supporter. Move it to B IMO.
  • Whiscash

  • Wormadam-Steel
    Why is this in the same tier as Pelliper I actually don't know. Move it down.

D-Rank--Low-viability overall. Many of them have a slim niche that they can pull off sometimes, but most of the time they’re just bad.

  • Articuno

  • Banette
    Banette is useless. Get it to F.
  • Beartic

  • Beedrill
    Beedrill is useless. Get it to F.
  • Bellossom

  • Camerupt
    Why is this so low .-. get it into at least B due to its unique typing and Solid Rock.
  • Carnivine
    Carnivine is useless. Get it to F.
  • Castform
    Castform is useless. Get it to F.
  • Chimecho
    Chimecho is useless. Get it to F.
  • Corsola

  • Dewgong
    Dewgong is useless. Get it to F.
  • Dunsparce
    Dunsparse is useless. Get it to F.
  • Electrode

  • Fearow

  • Glalie
    Glalie is useless. Move it to F.
  • Golem

  • Gourgeist
    Regular Gourgeist is ass. Move it to F.
  • Grumpig
    Grumpig is rather good. Move it to B.
  • Heatmor

  • Illumise
    Illumise is useless as Volbeat does everything it can do better. Move it to F.
  • Lopunny

  • Lunatone
    Lunatone does literally nothing that Solrock doesn't do better. Move it to F.
  • Minun
    Minun is useless. Move it to F.
  • Plusle
    Plusle is useless. Move it to F.
  • Regigigas

  • Relicanth

  • Seaking

  • Vanilluxe

  • Victreebel
    Move it up to C. It is a good chlorophyll 'mon.
  • Wailord

  • Walrein

  • Wormadam-Ground
    Move it down to F. This thing is literally worthless.

F-Rank--No niche worth mentioning, or just so hindered or outclassed that there’s generally no reason to give them a teamslot. They are literally the worst of the worst.

  • Beautifly

  • Cherrim

  • Delcatty

  • Delibird

  • Dustox

  • Farfetch’d

  • Furret

  • Girafarig

  • Golduck
    Golduck isn't on the same level as some of the sh*t in F. Move it to D.
  • Kriketune
    Kriketune is on par with Leavanny due to Taunt lol get it to wherever it is.
  • Ledian

  • Luvdisc

  • Magcargo

  • Mothim

  • Noctowl

  • Pachirisu

  • Parasect
    Parasect has a very small niche in Spore+Dry Skin. Put it in D.
  • Phione

  • Pidgeot

  • Spinda

  • Stantler
    Stantler gets Sap Sipper. It is usable. Put it in C/D.
  • Sudowoodo

  • Sunflora

  • Unfezant

  • Unown

  • Watchog

  • Wormadam-Grass

X-Rank--Entirely dependent on gimmicks so they can be the MVP, fall completely flat, or anything in between
Get rid of X tier. This is literally pointless. Ranks for the X rank stuff below them:
  • Ditto
    Ditto should be in C due to it being a (mostly) reliable revenge killer that faces exactly the same problems as it does in literally every tier.
  • Shedinja
Shedinja should be in C. It is a rather good pivot due to Wonder Guard and Baton Pass, but overly reliant on hazard removal.
 

Blaguard

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Changed: Victreebel (C), Stantler(D), Beedrill (F), Meowstic-F (D), Wormadam-Ground (F), Camerupt (C), Octillery (C), Plusle (F), Minun (F), Jumpluff (B), Sawsbuck (B), Tauros (S, why not), Castform (F), Illumise (F), Ursaring (A), Slaking (C), Bibarel (D), Aurorus (B), Arbok (B)
Added: Gourgeist-S (C), Electabuzz (C)
Did not change:
Golduck (can't see anything it can do that another water type isn't better at--F)
Kriketune (Leavanny has better stats and movepool, Ariados has more hazards and better typing, Taunt is almost an anti-niche lead but I can't see its utility--F)
Ariados (yes its stats are ass but hazards are very niche in PU--C)
Dedenne (it's not Raichu/Zebstrika but it has a bit of usage--C)
Meganium (gets Leech Seed and Aromatherapy for support, I'll keep it here for now--C)
Bastiodon (while it does have bad weaknesses it can go beyond just being a physical wall with its massive mixed stats, and can even take advantage of its weaknesses and sturdy for a Metal Burst KO, personally I really like it--A)
Chatot (decent stats, Boomburst is stupid powerful, and Chatter is disruptive--A)
Lumineon (I might move it down if defog wasn't so niche--B)
Swoobat (it's hard checked by Sneasel and in my experience it's so frail that a Calm Mind is more like a Nasty Plot--C)

Most of the stuff in D that I think has some use (D)

I'm still considering the rest, I'll get back to them.
 

Martin

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Kriketune (Leavanny has better stats and movepool, Ariados has more hazards and better typing, Taunt is almost an anti-niche lead but I can't see its utility--F)
Taunt singlehandedly puts it on par with Leavanny due to preventing Defog/opposing hazards and puts it above Ariados. Its not like you'd be using any of these shitmons beyond being leads anyway, so being able to anti-lead is quite possibly the best utility you could have in this role.
Dedenne (it's not Raichu/Zebstrika but it has a bit of usage--C)
Lol XD what usage? This thing is easily one of the most heavily outclassed 'mons in the tier. I mean dayum if Plusle is doing its job equally well it becomes blatantly obvious that it is a shitmon.
Bastiodon (while it does have bad weaknesses it can go beyond just being a physical wall with its massive mixed stats, and can even take advantage of its weaknesses and sturdy for a Metal Burst KO, personally I really like it--A)
Bastiodon loses to the vast majority of common attackers in the tier despite its good bulk. Metal Burst is a very niche, highly situational strategy on Bastiodon that any competent player would see right through and prevent from doing anything. Its has very little that it can do that isn't done equally well/better by something else, and what it can do over them is very niche. C.
Chatot (decent stats, Boomburst is stupid powerful, and Chatter is disruptive--A)
Boomburst is powerful and Chatter is disruptive, but Chatter should only ever be used to aid setup tbh (and IMO it should be banned from PU due to being uncompetitive/luck-based and making an otherwise meh pokemon to being able to somewhat consistently do anything, but that is a topic for the tiering council convo), but Chatot dies to literally any unresisted hit, choice scarf user and is completely walled by steel-types, being reliant on good luck to reach a point where it can become dangerous.
Lumineon (I might move it down if defog wasn't so niche--B)
Lunineon is outclassed by Pelliper as a defogger 90% of the time. Put it in D.
Swoobat (it's hard checked by Sneasel and in my experience it's so frail that a Calm Mind is more like a Nasty Plot--C)
Swoobat is capable of ripping through a lot. It is not A rank material, but it is better than C. Hense, B.[/QUOTE]
 

Blaguard

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Boomburst is powerful and Chatter is disruptive, but Chatter should only ever be used to aid setup tbh (and IMO it should be banned from PU due to being uncompetitive/luck-based and making an otherwise meh pokemon to being able to somewhat consistently do anything, but that is a topic for the tiering council convo), but Chatot dies to literally any unresisted hit, choice scarf user and is completely walled by steel-types, being reliant on good luck to reach a point where it can become dangerous.
.
If we banned Chatter for being "luck-based" we'd also have to ban:
Thunder Wave
Confuse Ray
Dynamicpunch
Sleep moves
Protect (double protect OP)

So that's a no.

I'm not sure what in PU "outclasses" Bastiondon, but from my experience its bulk is too much to ignore and it's not a super big deal to avoid your weaknesses.

Swoobat's defenses are shit
252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Thunderbolt vs. +2 0 HP / 0 SpD Swoobat: 242-289 (88 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
It's not moving up.

Dedenne has a secondary type and different moves, so yes it outclasses Plusle.

Kriketune has 65 speed, so I guess it can counterlead Ariados, but that's 1 mon. It's not moving.
 

Martin

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If we banned Chatter for being "luck-based" we'd also have to ban:
Thunder Wave
Confuse Ray
Dynamicpunch
Sleep moves
Protect (double protect OP)

So that's a no.
That's not what I meant... it allows an otherwise rather 'meh' pokemon to function 50% of the time (unlike using something like Encore or sleep to aid setup, which are virtually guaranteed), it deals damage (unlike Confuse Ray) it has actual utility (unlike Confuse Ray) doesn't have a 50% chance to be useless on the turn it is used (unlike Confuse Ray) it is 100% accurate (unlike Dynamic Punch) it hits and confuses through subs (unlike both Dynamic Punch and Confuse Ray) its utility beyond setting up is practically nonexistent (unlike Thunder Wave and sleep), doesn't guarantee setup in the same way that sleep does - making Chatot doing anything useful reliant on a 50% chance as opposed to an 80% chance (which is basically not luck based at this point as it a super-supermajority of the time an is not a coin flip - it is very rare for a "first turn wake" in the sense of the first turn after it inflicted) - and it doesn't kill momentum (unlike Protect and Confuse Ray). If you are trying to compare it to any of those moves you are not really understanding my point.
I'm not sure what in PU "outclasses" Bastiondon, but from my experience its bulk is too much to ignore and it's not a super big deal to avoid your weaknesses.
Well, in the tiering council you agreed that we could move Probopass down for a start, which basically takes away the niche of its typing due to Probopass having Magnet Pull, better offensive presence, similar overall bulk, greater utility and slightly higher speed, it is outclassed by Gigalith, Golem and Carracosta as a rocks lead due to them having utility beyond setting up (Custap Explosion to prevent hazards from being removed for Gigalith, Custap Explosion and Sucker Punch for Golem, utility beyond a lead for Carracosta). As a physdef wall it is outclassed by Poliwrath, Carracosta, Avalugg and Gourgeist-Super due to them having either better bulk, better typing, more offensive presence, more utility or any combination of those.
Swoobat's defenses are shit
252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Thunderbolt vs. +2 0 HP / 0 SpD Swoobat: 242-289 (88 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
It's not moving up.
I never said its defenses weren't bad, but I would have never guessed that a STAB Super Effective LO-boosted hit would OHKO. In fact I'm surprised that it has a >50% chance to live that from full health. And besides: if you're using Swoobat, its not for its defensive utility - it is for its OFFENSIVE utility because, y'know, it is an OFFENSIVE 'mon. The Simple CM is just the icing on the cake that happens to let it take on some special attackers. Instead of thinking of the bulk from Calm Mind, think of how it gives Swoobat a 20+(20*4)=100 base power Stored Power after one turn of setup and that two Calm Minds give it a 20+(20*8)=180 base power Stored Power after just two turns of setup - and this is before factoring in the extra points on Swoobat's SpA stat that come from having +4 SpA. This is a B rank 'mon.
Dedenne has a secondary type and different moves, so yes it outclasses Plusle.
Seeing how you brought up movepool and typing, I'm going to just compare the two 'mons real quick. Dedenne's entire Fairy-type movepool consists of Play Rough and... um... that's it. And Play Rough is going to do soooo much damage coming off of that almighty base 58 attack. As for defensively, it gives you an immunity to a type that is only present in Altaria and a load of rather poor NFE 'mons while Plusle has an immunity to Zebstrika and Raichu's STABs with Lightningrod. The resistances that fairy brings mean diddly-squat when you consider that it has 67/57/67 defenses. Dedenne's movepool is severely limited. If you look at its useful moves, you have Nuzzle, Thunderbolt, Volt Switch, Hidden Power and Grass Knot. Not only can Plusle use all of those moves, but it can use Nasty Plot, Baton Pass and Encore too. This allows it to force out setup and defensive 'mons, pass off its boosts to other 'mons (although admitedly Baton Pass is done better by Minun (who is generally inferior to Plusle). Sure it is 100% outclassed by Raichu - who does everything that Plusle does better - but the fact you had the audacity to say that Dedenne outclasses Plusle when the opposite is true really shows that you don't know about the pokemon.
Kriketune has 65 speed, so I guess it can counterlead Ariados, but that's 1 mon. It's not moving.
Kricketune has 65 speed, sure. But it is still better than Ariados. Also, it allows you to prevent the vast majority of rocks leads from setting up their hazards due to 65 OUTPACES the vast majority of rocks setters. In addition, it ties with Pelliper - who never runs max speed timid. This means that it can Taunt it, preventing it from using Defog while Kricketune is still on the field. That is a pretty damn big niche if you ask me - much bigger than Ariados', as T-Spikes aren't even very good tbh. How about having Ariados in D, Kricketune in C and Leavanny in B? That seems fare more realistic than Kricketune in F, Ariados in C and Leavanny in B if you ask me..
 
Last edited:

ericashes

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Chatter and boomburst should easily land chatot in S-Rank
 

Blaguard

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Update: moved Floatzel to A, moved Mr. Mime to A, added Wartortle in B, and proposed a suspect for Tauros (more on that soon)

Also, if you see any NFEs missing that you think should be ranked, please let me know (it's hard to think of all the good NFEs since they're not on the PU list)
 
Last edited:

Martin

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IMO move Wartortle down to D and put Prinplup in C. Prinplup is better on the whole, with Wartortle's only niche over it lying on hazard-stacking teams, but either way I feel like B is too high for two rather inconcequential pokemon in the tier.
 

Blaguard

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IMO move Wartortle down to D and put Prinplup in C. Prinplup is better on the whole, with Wartortle's only niche over it lying on hazard-stacking teams, but either way I feel like B is too high for two rather inconcequential pokemon in the tier.
I mean any team that runs any hazards would benefit from Rapid Spin over Defog.
But besides that, how is Prinplup better than Wartortle? Wartortle's bulk is a bit better (since higher base defenses multiplied by 1.5 beat higher HP), and other than 15 more points of SpA (for Scald?) I don't see many other differences.
For now I'll put them both in B
 

Martin

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I mean any team that runs any hazards would benefit from Rapid Spin over Defog.
But besides that, how is Prinplup better than Wartortle? Wartortle's bulk is a bit better (since higher base defenses multiplied by 1.5 beat higher HP), and other than 15 more points of SpA (for Scald?) I don't see many other differences.
For now I'll put them both in B
Primarily, Prinplup's ability to remove hazards v.s. Ghost-types without needing to spend away a moveslot for Foresight (i.e. the only reason to use Wartortle over Avalugg) is the main thing that sets it apart. Add to this the lack of viable Defiant/Competitive users (only Pawniard is worth using for this) when compared to the number of viable Ghost-types (Misdreavus, Haunter, and it makes removing hazards far less troublesome. Finally, the prospect of removing your own hazards seems like a deterrent until you consider that Prinplup can use Stealth Rock itself to alleviate this issue significantly. This makes Prinplup significantly more splashable than Wartortle is (and, when considering viability, splashability is a big issue that you need to consider) and results in it being typically more effective than Wartortle.
 

Blaguard

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Primarily, Prinplup's ability to remove hazards v.s. Ghost-types without needing to spend away a moveslot for Foresight (i.e. the only reason to use Wartortle over Avalugg) is the main thing that sets it apart. Add to this the lack of viable Defiant/Competitive users (only Pawniard is worth using for this) when compared to the number of viable Ghost-types (Misdreavus, Haunter, and it makes removing hazards far less troublesome. Finally, the prospect of removing your own hazards seems like a deterrent until you consider that Prinplup can use Stealth Rock itself to alleviate this issue significantly. This makes Prinplup significantly more splashable than Wartortle is (and, when considering viability, splashability is a big issue that you need to consider) and results in it being typically more effective than Wartortle.
So, standard Defog vs Rapid Spin argument (who the hell ever uses Foresight?) for the relatively slim number of Ghost-types in the tier. And yes, Prinplup gets its own rocks, but Wartortle doesn't get rid of them in the first place. On a hazard-heavy (or just hazard-running) team, Wartortle is a better, bulkier option.

Also I'm not going to consider "splashability" as it is not a word.
 

Martin

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So, standard Defog vs Rapid Spin argument (who the hell ever uses Foresight?) for the relatively slim number of Ghost-types in the tier. And yes, Prinplup gets its own rocks, but Wartortle doesn't get rid of them in the first place. On a hazard-heavy (or just hazard-running) team, Wartortle is a better, bulkier option.

Also I'm not going to consider "splashability" as it is not a word.
Firstly, Foresight is the main reason you'd ever use this over Avalugg in the role of spinning as it means that you aren't cockblocked by Ghost-types. Hell - in generation five that move alone lead to the powerful double-ghost cores that plagued the lower tiers due to the lack of the current Defog mechanics. Seriously, Foresight is a move that any spinner appreciates - don't undersell it.

Secondly, the main idea behind Prinplup being able to use rocks was not just to replace the ones its removed - it means that it can support the team beyond hazard removal, and it opens up a teamslot that would most likely be filled by a rocker if Wartortle was used over Prinplup.
The ability to both lay and remove hazards is great for any pokemon, and it is part of why Skarmory is such a good defogger in OU along with being literally the only reason why Defog Gliscor saw use in the early days of XY OU (i.e. in the era when Lucarionite was legal and DeoSharp hyper offense was the defining force of Smogon's metagame) despite being incompatible with Poison Heal - because they can lay rocks and clear hazards in one teamslot.

Finally, by splashable, I mean that you can put it onto a wider range of teams due to it having greater utility beyond removing hazards. The ability to not worry about risking wasting turns just because you are having to predict around a Ghost-type instantly gives you insane utility on its own, and the fact that it can lay down its own rocks if need be is just the cherry on top there. Compared with only really fitting better onto niche spike stacking and Sticky Web teams (both of which are not typically that good due to the nature of the metagame), the utility that Prinplup provides in one teamslot simply outweighs that of Wartortle on most teams, and it means that Prinplup fits onto a wider variety of teams than Wartortle does (i.e. it is "splashable")
 

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Firstly, Foresight is the main reason you'd ever use this over Avalugg in the role of spinning as it means that you aren't cockblocked by Ghost-types. Hell - in generation five that move alone lead to the powerful double-ghost cores that plagued the lower tiers due to the lack of the current Defog mechanics. Seriously, Foresight is a move that any spinner appreciates - don't undersell it.

Secondly, the main idea behind Prinplup being able to use rocks was not just to replace the ones its removed - it means that it can support the team beyond hazard removal, and it opens up a teamslot that would most likely be filled by a rocker if Wartortle was used over Prinplup.
The ability to both lay and remove hazards is great for any pokemon, and it is part of why Skarmory is such a good defogger in OU along with being literally the only reason why Defog Gliscor saw use in the early days of XY OU (i.e. in the era when Lucarionite was legal and DeoSharp hyper offense was the defining force of Smogon's metagame) despite being incompatible with Poison Heal - because they can lay rocks and clear hazards in one teamslot.

Finally, by splashable, I mean that you can put it onto a wider range of teams due to it having greater utility beyond removing hazards. The ability to not worry about risking wasting turns just because you are having to predict around a Ghost-type instantly gives you insane utility on its own, and the fact that it can lay down its own rocks if need be is just the cherry on top there. Compared with only really fitting better onto niche spike stacking and Sticky Web teams (both of which are not typically that good due to the nature of the metagame), the utility that Prinplup provides in one teamslot simply outweighs that of Wartortle on most teams, and it means that Prinplup fits onto a wider variety of teams than Wartortle does (i.e. it is "splashable")
I understand the difference between Rapid Spin and Defog, but given the relatively small number of Ghosts in PU, Rapid Spin is generally just as viable and doesn't require you to waste turns re-setting hazards.

In the end they do the same job in slightly different ways, that doesn't make one superior to the other. In this metagame there's not much reason they can't coexist at the same level.

And no, splashable still isn't a word.
 

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I understand the difference between Rapid Spin and Defog, but given the relatively small number of Ghosts in PU, Rapid Spin is generally just as viable and doesn't require you to waste turns re-setting hazards.

In the end they do the same job in slightly different ways, that doesn't make one superior to the other. In this metagame there's not much reason they can't coexist at the same level.

And no, splashable still isn't a word.
I know splashable isn't a word in the dictionary -_- I just couldn't think of a better way to describe it as there is no other way to put it. Sometimes you have to be a little imaginative with the way you describe something as you can't always take find an existing word, and it is the way that many communities will describe things which can be put onto many teams/decks/whatever with less drawbacks than something else as there IS no other way to say it, and there isn't really a better way to put it in one word than splashable.

Imagine it like rapidly shaking your finger over the surface of water; water is splashable (i.e. it can be splashed) and, when you shake your finger over its surface, droplets of water are sent out in all directions. Now imagine those directions are all different teams, and the splashes are the pokemon which fits best onto each one. If these droplets are all either Wartortle or Prinplup, there would be more Prinplups than there are Wartortles on the basis that its utility extends beyond simple hazard removal - which Wartortle's doesn't (i.e. it can be "splashed" onto a larger number of teams due to its improved overall utility). There is literally no other way that I could put it, so this will have to do.
 

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I know splashable isn't a word in the dictionary -_- I just couldn't think of a better way to describe it as there is no other way to put it. Sometimes you have to be a little imaginative with the way you describe something as you can't always take find an existing word, and it is the way that many communities will describe things which can be put onto many teams/decks/whatever with less drawbacks than something else as there IS no other way to say it, and there isn't really a better way to put it in one word than splashable.

Imagine it like rapidly shaking your finger over the surface of water; water is splashable (i.e. it can be splashed) and, when you shake your finger over its surface, droplets of water are sent out in all directions. Now imagine those directions are all different teams, and the splashes are the pokemon which fits best onto each one. If these droplets are all either Wartortle or Prinplup, there would be more Prinplups than there are Wartortles on the basis that its utility extends beyond simple hazard removal - which Wartortle's doesn't (i.e. it can be "splashed" onto a larger number of teams due to its improved overall utility). There is literally no other way that I could put it, so this will have to do.
Versatile.
The word you are looking for is "versatile".
And no, I'm not moving them.
 

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Versatile.
The word you are looking for is "versatile".
And no, I'm not moving them.
Versatile isn't the same thing. Versatile means that it can do many things. However, this is not the case with either (in fact they are both pretty one-dimensional). While versatility usually leads to 'splashability', the two things are not one and the same. Anyway I'm bored so I'll just make a different nomination.

Venipede, Whirlipede and Dwebble to B
I am saying this because they are all very good spikes leads for different teams (and tbh there isn't much else to do the job). While you may be thinking "why both Whirlipede and Venipede?" there is a good reason for this. Venipede has more speed (enough to outpace Taunt users such as Simipour at +1) while Whirlipede has enough bulk to take a Rock Blast from Golem, allowing it to set up a second layer of hazards v.s. it.

As for Dwebble, it makes a good Custap lead due to access to Sturdy, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Knock Off and Rock Blast mean that it can very easily lay down hazards as a lead.
 

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Versatile isn't the same thing. Versatile means that it can do many things. However, this is not the case with either (in fact they are both pretty one-dimensional). While versatility usually leads to 'splashability', the two things are not one and the same. Anyway I'm bored so I'll just make a different nomination.

Venipede, Whirlipede and Dwebble to B
I am saying this because they are all very good spikes leads for different teams (and tbh there isn't much else to do the job). While you may be thinking "why both Whirlipede and Venipede?" there is a good reason for this. Venipede has more speed (enough to outpace Taunt users such as Simipour at +1) while Whirlipede has enough bulk to take a Rock Blast from Golem, allowing it to set up a second layer of hazards v.s. it.

As for Dwebble, it makes a good Custap lead due to access to Sturdy, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Knock Off and Rock Blast mean that it can very easily lay down hazards as a lead.
You rant all over my thread about how Defog is splashier than Rapid Spin because not a lot of teams stack hazards, and now you want my to add three things to B...because they stack hazards

Whirlipede I'll rank for sure, with Eviolite it has good bulk and can work well to set hazards. B- or C+ would probably be good for it (since it's still got several weaknesses and limited sets.)

Dwebble is definitely not B (Custap lead is exactly 1 very specific set that is a wasted sacrifice if the other team can Defog/Spin), but it has enough viability to get a mention in the rankings. It can be C-

In order for Venipede to be viable, it needs:
  1. The other team to carry one of the Simis, or another fast taunter
  2. That pokemon to actually carry Taunt (lots of things have more than one set)
  3. Them to not counter-lead with their taunter (why would they carry Taunt?) so you can get a stage of speed
In every other circumstance Whirlipede is better. Venipede isn't going to be ranked.
 
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